That's what I was afraid of. I am also terrible at that. If I ask for what I think I'm worth, I feel like I'm severely overcharging them. So I ask for something that seems reasonable and feel like I'm being vastly underpaid.
What's worse is that I am a terrible judge of how long things will take me. I tend to prefer to do things slow but right, so it takes longer to get it working, but maintaining it is easy. But sometimes even the "slow" way goes pretty quickly... Bah!
i don't bid hourly at all. you always end up undercutting yourself. figure out what the project is worth, and measure it against their ability to pay, as well as the likelihood for future work with them, or referrals. it's worth it to underbid on an initial project for a really lucrative client, just for the future payoff.
You're right. I learned the hard way never to charge an hourly rate because you end up spending more effort trying to track your hours than you do actually programming.
In general, I think your advice will help me decide what to charge people. The particular case where I'm trying to figure out how much to charge is a bit complicated though because it's hard for me to judge the value of the project as it will not bring my client any direct revenue (but it will allow him to learn how to incease the value he provides to his clients).
This is also someone who I used to work for, I started working for him about 10 years ago, and because I was 13 or 14, I worked for CHEAP. He's also pretty miserly, so his willingness to pay is much less than his ability, I'd be willing to bet.
However, he considers me to be the only person with the expertise to bring this project to completion, as this is something I've been helping him with since I first started working for him, which I continued to help him with through college, albeit in a limited fashion.
So basically, if I overcharge him, he'll probably agree begrudgingly, but feel like I'm taking advantage of him, which I would like to avoid considering the length of the relationship.
I'll post an explanation of the project and what is involved, and maybe you guys could give me a rough estimate of what you'd charge to do it. And then maybe I'll outsource it to you. ;)
He is a college advisor. Parents pay him some sum of money, and he sits down with their child(ren) nearly college age, does some career assessments, hooks them up with SAT prep if they need it, recommends colleges for them to check out and apply to, and then helps them battle for more financial aid if the school is shorting them (which they do 99% of the time).
Annually, he puts all of his clients data in a spreadsheet for statistical analysis. There is one row per student per school per application, with a bunch of columnts such as the name of the student, the name of the university, the student's SAT, the school's cost of attendance, whether the student was accepted to the school, how much financial aid they were awarded, how much of that was gift aid versus work study or loans, etc., etc. From that data, he extrapolates the acceptance rate for his clients at a given school vs. the national average, the average cost of attendance at the schools he sends the kids to, the average financial award package per school, the average percent of need met by gift aid by student's SAT, etc.
I'm sure you can all imagine the problems with using a SPREADSHEET in this way. It's clunky, the data is repeated a billion times, there's no referential integrity, and way the hell too much redundant data entry. And most of the extrapolation has to happen by hand. Several weeks are usually wasted on the data entry, error checking, and number crunching. And some useful information is never calculated due to the complexity of such calculation.
What's even stupider is that all the data that goes into this spreadsheet exists in other spreadsheets that they use to summarize what they've done for each client throughout the year, but because each spreadsheet for each client is a different file, there's no easy way to migrate that data to the uber-spreadsheet at the end of the year.
My proposed solution is a web based normalized relational database with a data entry and report interface, and a client-accessible interface where the clients can access reports that look similar to what the old spreadsheets did.
The challenges are going to be migrating the old data to a normalized database, making the interface look nice (I am bad at this), and figuring out how to do all the statistical analysis that is currently being done, preferably using more statistically significant methods than are currently being used. If the interface is simple enough, he may pay someone else to do the data entry. It's been years since I took any statistics class, and I'm pretty sure I burned or sold my stats book.
Also, he's a tweaker. Once something is done, you can be sure he'll ask for bunches of changes and "enhancements."
Given all this information, what would you charge for such a project?
1. how complex will the statistical calculations be? is it just a matter of figuring out one big formula or is there actually a ton of number-crunching involved?
2. since clients will be able to access the data, i'm assuming this requires security, login checks and registration etc. correct? basically there will be a publicly-accessible front-end and an administrative backend?
3. will the report interface be in html or do something like pdf generation?
4. how many administrative pages will they need to be able to add/edit data? for example, they'll obviously need to be able to enter student records and the accompanying data. but what about editing the dropdown menus of schools and that kind of thing? or will you be pre-entering that info directly in the database yourself and not have it editable by the client?
5. and on a fairly basic level, how many pages do you think the site will consist of?
that's the kind of info i'd try to get out of a client before putting together a bid, so that will help me give you a good guess! :)
1. Most of the calculations will probably not be *that* complicated, but there will be a large number of them.
2. Security and login checks are necessary, most definitely. User registration will be done on the administrative side, however. (When a user is created for entering their data, they will be given a username and password). Also, and this is important, they must be able to specify which reports are available on a per-user basis. For example, if he is only helping a student apply for schools and not handling their financial situation, all the financial breakdown reports would be irrelevant. Or, a type of report may be available, but a set of data may be unreportable. For example, they might record the data associated with a financial award for internal tracking purposes, but not wish to show this to a client for whatever reason (perhaps a bad award that they are still negotiating).
3. Report interface can be in html to avoid the added complexity of pdf generation. However, these reports should not be completely crappy when printed.
4. They will have to enter student data, school data (which changes based on fiscal year), application data (matching up school and student, along with all information specific to that application, such as whether or not they were accepted). They will definitely need access to editing the dropdown list of schools and such, or I'm going to end up having to go in and change it by hand constantly.
5. Well, let's see. Clients will have a reports interface, with probably only a couple of reports available. They may be able to review their data in case of any inaccuracies (SAT score, etc.), see their list of applied schools and the status, and finally (if they are the right kind of client), see reports on each financial award from all the different schools. If they have multiple awards, they should be able to compare them side by side. Perhaps they will have the choice of which ones to see side by side.
On the administrative side, they will need a data entry page for each table, they should be able to see the reports that clients will be able to see, a report that summarizes all the data for the fiscal year (organized by school and organized by student -- really 2 different reports), displaying some of the more basic statistics, and then probably 2 more reports with less data displayed but with more statistical analysis, again by school and by student. Possibly more later if he asks for more functionality once it's in place, which is likely.
So, I guess that would be at least 12 pages, roughly.
the admin area seems pretty complex for a small site. the big items there are granular security on a per-user basis and the ability to be able to administer their own menus and such. also, designing nice printable reports in html can be tricky, so i'd rate that pretty high as well.
if this was a client i knew could afford it, i'd probably bid a little under $3000. however, since you said it's someone who's used to you working for a lot less, and also the fact there will probably be continual work involved, i'd probably shoot for more in the $1000-1500 range. you could also estimate your time at $25ish an hour and see if it falls within that as well. i find that even estimating $25/hr (which is really low for dev work, but on a freelance project that's standard), you'll probably find you only come up with half that amount. that's why hourly sucks. ;)
After typing out the requirements, I think I'm inclined to go with something closer to the first number you gave me. Especially since I think I will have a friend help me spiff up the interface for a cut. It's going to be a lot of work. I will try to show him the work that needs to be done to make something like that (or offer a scaled down version without all the bells and whistles for less money). If he doesn't like it, oh well. I mean, I'm interested in doing freelance, but I really wouldn't mind passing up this job, as he is kind of a pain in the ass...
Actually, first, I think I'm going to ask him what kind of budget he is looking at for something like this, and if he lowballs, I'll just tell him I can't do it. If he's close, we'll negotiate.
Once the work is complete, do you offer a support contract? I'm just afraid that once it's done, he'll still ask for updates and changes all the time (especially if they don't cost him anything), because he's like that.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2005-05-24 09:26 pm (UTC)What's worse is that I am a terrible judge of how long things will take me. I tend to prefer to do things slow but right, so it takes longer to get it working, but maintaining it is easy. But sometimes even the "slow" way goes pretty quickly...
Bah!
no subject
Date: 2005-05-24 09:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-24 09:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-25 02:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-05-24 11:16 pm (UTC)In general, I think your advice will help me decide what to charge people. The particular case where I'm trying to figure out how much to charge is a bit complicated though because it's hard for me to judge the value of the project as it will not bring my client any direct revenue (but it will allow him to learn how to incease the value he provides to his clients).
This is also someone who I used to work for, I started working for him about 10 years ago, and because I was 13 or 14, I worked for CHEAP. He's also pretty miserly, so his willingness to pay is much less than his ability, I'd be willing to bet.
However, he considers me to be the only person with the expertise to bring this project to completion, as this is something I've been helping him with since I first started working for him, which I continued to help him with through college, albeit in a limited fashion.
So basically, if I overcharge him, he'll probably agree begrudgingly, but feel like I'm taking advantage of him, which I would like to avoid considering the length of the relationship.
I'll post an explanation of the project and what is involved, and maybe you guys could give me a rough estimate of what you'd charge to do it. And then maybe I'll outsource it to you. ;)
He is a college advisor. Parents pay him some sum of money, and he sits down with their child(ren) nearly college age, does some career assessments, hooks them up with SAT prep if they need it, recommends colleges for them to check out and apply to, and then helps them battle for more financial aid if the school is shorting them (which they do 99% of the time).
Annually, he puts all of his clients data in a spreadsheet for statistical analysis. There is one row per student per school per application, with a bunch of columnts such as the name of the student, the name of the university, the student's SAT, the school's cost of attendance, whether the student was accepted to the school, how much financial aid they were awarded, how much of that was gift aid versus work study or loans, etc., etc.
From that data, he extrapolates the acceptance rate for his clients at a given school vs. the national average, the average cost of attendance at the schools he sends the kids to, the average financial award package per school, the average percent of need met by gift aid by student's SAT, etc.
I'm sure you can all imagine the problems with using a SPREADSHEET in this way. It's clunky, the data is repeated a billion times, there's no referential integrity, and way the hell too much redundant data entry. And most of the extrapolation has to happen by hand. Several weeks are usually wasted on the data entry, error checking, and number crunching. And some useful information is never calculated due to the complexity of such calculation.
What's even stupider is that all the data that goes into this spreadsheet exists in other spreadsheets that they use to summarize what they've done for each client throughout the year, but because each spreadsheet for each client is a different file, there's no easy way to migrate that data to the uber-spreadsheet at the end of the year.
My proposed solution is a web based normalized relational database with a data entry and report interface, and a client-accessible interface where the clients can access reports that look similar to what the old spreadsheets did.
The challenges are going to be migrating the old data to a normalized database, making the interface look nice (I am bad at this), and figuring out how to do all the statistical analysis that is currently being done, preferably using more statistically significant methods than are currently being used. If the interface is simple enough, he may pay someone else to do the data entry. It's been years since I took any statistics class, and I'm pretty sure I burned or sold my stats book.
Also, he's a tweaker. Once something is done, you can be sure he'll ask for bunches of changes and "enhancements."
Given all this information, what would you charge for such a project?
no subject
Date: 2005-05-24 11:29 pm (UTC)1. how complex will the statistical calculations be? is it just a matter of figuring out one big formula or is there actually a ton of number-crunching involved?
2. since clients will be able to access the data, i'm assuming this requires security, login checks and registration etc. correct? basically there will be a publicly-accessible front-end and an administrative backend?
3. will the report interface be in html or do something like pdf generation?
4. how many administrative pages will they need to be able to add/edit data? for example, they'll obviously need to be able to enter student records and the accompanying data. but what about editing the dropdown menus of schools and that kind of thing? or will you be pre-entering that info directly in the database yourself and not have it editable by the client?
5. and on a fairly basic level, how many pages do you think the site will consist of?
that's the kind of info i'd try to get out of a client before putting together a bid, so that will help me give you a good guess! :)
no subject
Date: 2005-05-25 12:05 am (UTC)2. Security and login checks are necessary, most definitely. User registration will be done on the administrative side, however. (When a user is created for entering their data, they will be given a username and password).
Also, and this is important, they must be able to specify which reports are available on a per-user basis. For example, if he is only helping a student apply for schools and not handling their financial situation, all the financial breakdown reports would be irrelevant. Or, a type of report may be available, but a set of data may be unreportable. For example, they might record the data associated with a financial award for internal tracking purposes, but not wish to show this to a client for whatever reason (perhaps a bad award that they are still negotiating).
3. Report interface can be in html to avoid the added complexity of pdf generation. However, these reports should not be completely crappy when printed.
4. They will have to enter student data, school data (which changes based on fiscal year), application data (matching up school and student, along with all information specific to that application, such as whether or not they were accepted). They will definitely need access to editing the dropdown list of schools and such, or I'm going to end up having to go in and change it by hand constantly.
5. Well, let's see. Clients will have a reports interface, with probably only a couple of reports available. They may be able to review their data in case of any inaccuracies (SAT score, etc.), see their list of applied schools and the status, and finally (if they are the right kind of client), see reports on each financial award from all the different schools. If they have multiple awards, they should be able to compare them side by side. Perhaps they will have the choice of which ones to see side by side.
On the administrative side, they will need a data entry page for each table, they should be able to see the reports that clients will be able to see, a report that summarizes all the data for the fiscal year (organized by school and organized by student -- really 2 different reports), displaying some of the more basic statistics, and then probably 2 more reports with less data displayed but with more statistical analysis, again by school and by student. Possibly more later if he asks for more functionality once it's in place, which is likely.
So, I guess that would be at least 12 pages, roughly.
no subject
Date: 2005-05-25 02:33 am (UTC)if this was a client i knew could afford it, i'd probably bid a little under $3000. however, since you said it's someone who's used to you working for a lot less, and also the fact there will probably be continual work involved, i'd probably shoot for more in the $1000-1500 range. you could also estimate your time at $25ish an hour and see if it falls within that as well. i find that even estimating $25/hr (which is really low for dev work, but on a freelance project that's standard), you'll probably find you only come up with half that amount. that's why hourly sucks. ;)
no subject
Date: 2005-05-25 04:17 am (UTC)Actually, first, I think I'm going to ask him what kind of budget he is looking at for something like this, and if he lowballs, I'll just tell him I can't do it. If he's close, we'll negotiate.
Once the work is complete, do you offer a support contract? I'm just afraid that once it's done, he'll still ask for updates and changes all the time (especially if they don't cost him anything), because he's like that.